Death Penalty for Poles
09.08.06
at 17:54
at 17:54
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Neil Clark reminded me of something I was going to blog about. In Shock! Horror! Politician listens to the people! he reminds us that "the Kaczyinski twins- in common with 70% of Poles, want the death penalty brought back. How silly of them. Don't they know that 'democracy' in the EU means doing the exact opposite to what the people want?"
Poland is regarded as a staunchly Catholic country, no? Why even the last Pope was Polish, no? Poland has seen rather a lot of the death penalty in the last century, no?
Why then can they of all people, as devout as they were to "Papa", not understand that the death penalty is probably the one single, lone area on which John Paul II was, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church is, as one with the terms and conditions of the great evil of moral relativism he saw as the EU.
Whilst the church does not, in the Catechism, (Section 3, Chapter 2) exclude recourse to the death penalty "if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor", numerous times John Paul II, in particular in reference to the ongoing debates on the subject in the United States, said that no modern civilised nation should need to have recourse to the death penalty because all are perfectly capable of dealing with even the worst of criminals by imprisonment and the like.
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On 10.08.06 at 08:40 Ed (not verified) said:
I live in Warsaw and I have done for about a year, so I thought I would just share my tuppence worth.
Firstly there is no doubt that Poland is one of the most devout R.C. states in Europe. You can find evidence in the recent visit of Pope Benedict and the masses who turned out from all over the country, the fact many of them slept in the town square to get a good spot, plus the very high church attendences etc.
If you visit Poland and get talking to Poles you find that many of those who do not practice still like to define themselves as RC. And the Polish press at the time of Pope Benedict's visit were speculating that he made this his first visit because he was hoping to get more influence within the EU and he was hoping to do it through Poland.
However, Poland do not consult every law with the Church. Lech Kaczynski was voted in partly on a ticket of strong social morality. I would see his views on capital punishment as in line with this.
Let me start by saying that I think that the jury is still out re the effectiveness of capital punishment. But I do think that if a democratic country reintroduces it after due process that is fine. If the operation of the law itself is then unimpeded by legal challenges etc neutral observers might be in a position to make a judgment on its impact. Of course, abolitionists/the EU will not allow this and will do everything short of war to prevent this legislation being implemented effectively.
NB - Some commentators attribute recent swings to the right in Poland and Slovakia as being in part due to its younger people's negative experiences of multi-cultural UK.
The Polish Pope's antipathy to the death penalty though was not I don't think based on whether it is effective" - whatever that means (deterrance, stopping recidivism etc). It was based on theology. A remarkably consistent moral theology about the sacredness of human life and God as the only true judge of someone's conscience. That every single soul deserves an opportunity for expiation and repentance, even if for the safety of others they cannot be let loose in free society.
So I would have thought that a nation as devout as Poland would have taken John Paul II's advice at face value. But maybe their devotion is less than he made out?"
Yeah, but Ed, where does one get one's strong social morality"?
For a Catholic dominated country one would have expected that to be, de facto, Catholic moral theology. It's not a case of consulting with the Pope on every law, it's a case that their moral code comes from that same background.
And the death penalty, certainly to me, and it seems from the number of times he reiterated his dislike for it, old Karol, is pretty fundamentally contrary to that moral theology. Retribution rather than repentance and so on.
No worries - it's not just Polish Catholics who never seem to understand this. Pro-lifers in the US too seem to largely support the death penalty there - which is why JPII made such a big issue of it several times in apostolic letters to the American church.
It's just odd to me really. It comes from either a misundertsnad or a wilful misinterpretation of the predominant moral code by which they seem to want otherwise to live and impose on others. Go figure."
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I don't know many Poles personally but I know quite a few Slovaks of Polish ancestry who are also strong Catholics and almost worship JPII. I haven't canvassed views extensively but my understanding is that the prevailing view there would be I know that as a Catholic I should be against (capital punishment), but if someone's going round killing people..." with the stricter Catholics following the papal lead.
EU membership has been a long-awaited prize for many of these countries. I suppose my fascination is how these countries politics is shaping up now that the prize is in the bag and how the EU will respond to these new partners running policies which are in effect taboo in candidate states."